The Menopausal Musings of 4 Middle Aged Women!

In this episode I chat with 3 amazing women, Dianne Benson, Yogi adventurer from season 2 episode 4, Nurse Practitioner Gilly Spence from Season 1 episode 23 and Bee Macpherson Associate Professor Clinical Education, Associate Director Student Support, at the School of Medicine, University of Leeds.  
Each share with us their menopause journey, from symptoms to emotions, what helped them and how they got though it.
Bee has set up 'Menopause for thought' cafes for peer support and is a pioneer in raising awareness through talks, workshops and programmes.
Gilly has set up Our Menopause Ripon facebook group and holds local monthly meetings for women to get together to share and for support.
Dianne runs daily yoga classes via zoom and supports her students going through menopause in many different ways

Grab a cuppa and join us!
  Love
  Liz x

Be recommends the following for menopause guidance:
• National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) guidelines. These explain how your GP will
determine what types of treatments and interventions they can offer you.
• The National Health Service provides an overview of menopause.
• The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists offer further information in a dedicated area
of their website.
• Henpicked provides information on managing menopause and an insight into women's stories.
• Faculty of occupational medicine provides information about menopause within the workplace.

Gilly's 'Our Menopause Ripon group details Instagram: @ourmenopauseripon
Facebook: @ourmenopauseripon

Dianne can be contacted via Instagram:  @yogadenbenson
Facebook:  @YogaDen
New YouTube Channel: Adventures of a Yogi  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMUj6buTE9Kc-jcsY7QjPg
Dianne Holds daily classes on Zoom, to sign up contact her at yogaden@yahoo.com

  You can contact me at the usual details:
  email:  spirituallyspeaking222@gmail.com
  Instagram: spiritually_speaking_222
  Facebook:  spirtuallyspeaking222
  Youtube: LizzyHill222

Transcript

Liz Hill: 0:05

Hi, this is Liz and welcome to my podcast, spiritually Speaking with Liz. Just a little reminder, if you could like and follow on my YouTube channel and click the little notification bell. And also if you can follow on the app that you listen to your podcast on. So today we're looking at a little bit of a different angle, as you'll see, because I'm joined by three gorgeous ladies and today we're going to have a little spotlight on menopause. So we are all of a similar age. And perimenopausal and menopausal, and I just think it's so important for women to. Talk about this. It is getting better out there. I think more and more people are talking about it, but there are still. Um, some places where it's not spoken about or women feel uncomfortable. So my mission with this podcast and with this video is just to reach out to those women and say, you're not alone. I've got the three gorgeous women here who are going to give you a little bit about their story, and we're just gonna generally have a little chit chat. So I will introduce you. To them first. So I'll start at my top left with Diane. So Diane joined me a couple of weeks ago and she's our adventurous little yogi who's moved to France. Hi everyone. And then we've got Gilly. Gilly joined me last year for my first sofa session, so she actually came and sat on here with me and we did our first chat then about menopause and. Gilly was quite instrumental for me. She helps me through a lot of mine because I felt very alone. And then we're joined by B, so B is, we call her our little, well, I call her our little high flyer because she's really banging the drum for this and doing an incredible job. So B is an associate professor, clinical education and associate director, student support at the School of Medicine in the University of Le. So, Bee start, she'll tell you about it herself. But Bee started her journey quite young at 42. But at 2018 she decided that I can't be the only one going through this. And she aired her vulnerability. I think she was incredibly brave and went to speak to people within the university to help other people, other women along the way. And it's not just women. It affects as well as we'll talk about. So welcome ladies. Hello. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you. So b b, we're gonna start with you. So if you can just tell us a little bit about your personal menopause story.

Bee Macpherson: 2:50

Yeah. Thank you Liz. Thanks for inviting me. It's lovely to have the opportunity to talk to other, other, um, people about it. So yes, um, I was 42 when a consultant said to me, this Mrs. My first, and I'm afraid as the start of the end for you. And I think my kind of eyebrows hit my hairline. Um, but to be honest, you know, I thought, well, I'm a qualified health professional. I thought I understood a bit about menopause. I thought because I was young, because I was fit and healthy, um, I was really lucky that I'd had a family and I didn't want any more children. So when I thought, Great, no problem. No more periods. Excellent. I thought don't need to worry about contraception. Excellent. And I just thought that, um, You know, I would just move through this transition quite easily, but the reality for me was really quite different. And it was more like a, a punch in the, in the face. And I think I was probably all right for the first couple of years. I think like many women, we just get on with it. You're used to dealing with your periods and your hormones and pregnancy and childbirth. So I think we are very resilient to the species. And may I say, But as time went on, I began to experience like a, a massive range of physical, physiological. I'm at times psychological, um, impacts of perimenopause, which I didn't know about, I didn't understand. Um, you know, and really. Left me feeling quite iso isolated and alone, because I certainly felt at that time that there was no general conversation about it. Nobody talked about it. When I've tried to talk to friends about it, nobody seemed to be having a similar experience, but I, I genuinely have been humbled, um, to speak to hundreds of women over the last, just over five years now. And my mine is a shared experience. It's not all the same experience. But it's not just my lived experience. And actually it is reflected in the chief officer's report medical officer's report of 2015, which is called the health of the 51%, you know, and, and women we're half the population. This is, you know, I have no wish to pathologize the menopause. It is a natural transition, but it is not necessarily. An easy transition for some people. And as you rightly say, it's not just a women's issue. We, we, you know, um, it, you know, there may be other people such as people who are non-binary or trans men who may experience, but course. Can I just say one more thing, but one of my, um, one of my missions, well, two of my missions was to, because I think it's still taboo. To talk about menopause. And I think you're absolutely right that there is a much more general conversation about it, which I think is excellent. But I still think the really difficult stuff's not necessarily talked about. And I get, I get why that, that that's difficult. And this is where my menopause brains just kicked in. Only, only one of them was, um, Oh, it doesn't matter. It'll come back to me, I'm sure in the course of our conversation. Um, but yeah. Sorry. You said about making myself vulnerable. Uh, can I just add to that, because you gave me a bit of a moment when you said that because it wasn't an easy thing to do and I think particularly where I don't think it's easy for anybody, but I think particularly where I work, I would be very judged, you know, if I was honest about some of the signs and symptoms I was having. Um, but I suppose my desire. To make things better for other people with just slightly greater than my fear of how vulnerable about

Liz Hill: 6:32

myself that well, I think that's amazing because it takes great strength to do that. And working in academia many years ago, it, it is quite, it can be quite archaic. In, its in, its in the pathology of it, can't it? It it's quite set and stayed and it, there's this rigid view of just go away and get on with it. And you know, like you say, we, we don't talk about it. Umai, what would you like to say about your journey? It,

Dianne Benson: 7:07

it's, it is interesting listening to other women. I've never, this is the first time I've sort of, Spoke about it. I've got two sisters and we're very close. But even that, you know, it's not something you sit around and have a cup of tea talking about really. And you just get, like you say, you just get on with it, don't you? Mm-hmm. And then, and then over time you start sort of dropping something into conversation and they say, oh yeah, I had that or I had this. And that opens up the channel for, um, conversation, but. I think mine's been a really gradual experience and, and it's been confusing for me in the personally because as we spoke about last time, Liz, that there's been lots of injuries over time, sporting injuries that have affected my spine and, um, and I really believe that that also affects hormones. You know, the, the. It's sort of all linked, the whole body mind thing, isn't it? And of course, so over time, the, the, all the things that menopause the symptoms, like the aching joints and the mood swings and the irritability and the frustrations and all the, um, all the things that go on your, your checklist that can be mixed up with severe pain. And so over time I've sort of thought, oh, it's just me. Hurting because my, you know, my joints are hurting, my spine's hurting, my head's hurting. Um, everything's hurting because of injuries. But then, um, then it kicks into the psychological side of it and the emotional side of it. And you, your partners start saying, God, I can't deal with you. You're psycho and, and you think I'm actually a really nice person. I'm not psycho at all. What's, you know, what is going on with, with my head or my life, or my, my being? And so over time you start sort of like a jigsaw puzzle. You start putting things together and think. It can't just be because of injuries. It can't just be because my partner's irritating the heck out of me, or, um, and all of these things come together and, and then you question the balance of it all. You know, practicing yoga is all about balance, whether it's physical, psychological, spiritual, it's all having a beer on one hand and having green tea on the other. It's balanced. You know, and, um, so when that balance starts to become really obviously out of balance, um, you do start thinking, I want a minute. You know, there's something more to this. Um, and when it, I think what happened, I saw a gradual imbalance in the hormones in my, in the moods, in the psychological side of things. And the pain level just kicked up with the joints, um, and, and bleeding, and, um, all those things start to get progressively worse. But then the emotional side just really went off the Richter scale. So you start crying your heart out for like,

Bee Macpherson: 10:16

what the hell happened there? So a lady bird got crushed or something

Dianne Benson: 10:20

and you think, and you just psycho of crying or, um, you know, something little and it's just outta balance. Um, so. Uh, from my point of view, I've always gone down the natural therapies. I've, I've, um, it's not that I'm against medicine, I think it's got a place and it's fabulous, but I've always just chosen all natural therapies as much as possible. I. Um, you know, so in yoga, the Aer Veic side of dealing with hormones, the, the, the yogic practice, the acupuncture, all these massage, anything that balances the holistic system. Mm-hmm. Um, but what I found was, uh, when the, when I can only speak for me, but when my. Psychological side, like the hormonal side just became so out of balance. It's unstable and you need something a bit more to kick that into balance. And so that's what turned me to H R T.

Bee Macpherson: 11:23

Can I just add to that? Cause I completely agree with what Dice said. Um, and I developed really extreme anxiety. Yeah. So I've done the same drive to work for 20 years and I beca and, and I love driving and it never bothered me, but I, I would find myself in the outside lane, thinking in the outside lane, what am I, I'm driving in the outside, am I doing. But I could always kind of manage yourself to myself. Well come on back first and get a grip. I became muted meetings. I thought, well, I can't speak cuz people will think I'm,

Dianne Benson: 11:52

yeah, palpitations are self, self-conscious,

Bee Macpherson: 11:58

but. And, and I, I did try lots of different stuff before H R T and I, and I'll, I'll come back to some other Chinese medicine that, that I still access, but I, I now honestly believe that H H R T is a life serving and life changing mm-hmm. Treatment for some people.

Dianne Benson: 12:18

Yeah. Yeah. I, I just finish on really the, what I'm saying there that cuz Yeah, exactly. I think what really turned my head towards H R T is recognizing that the chemical imbalance needed to be stabilized. And I am so, like I said about the balance, it is not, um, Against medicine. It's not for pro uh therapies, anything like that. It's just finding the balance in life and whatever works for whatever person in whatever way that is balanced. Um, and when you are having these anxiety attacks for no reason now you might be teaching yoga, which. I'm perfectly comfortable with and, uh, done thousands of classes and then suddenly you get

Bee Macpherson: 13:06

in a palpitation

Dianne Benson: 13:07

and you're nervous and anxiety and you're waking up with anxiety and you think, what's that all about? Um, so when you're sitting in the doctor's office asking for h r t or, or to get the ball rolling and you're in floods of tears and out of control, it's just not normal. It's not natural to be like that. So, Um, it is, there are, um, something for everybody, and if h r t is, is it for you, then that's great. You know? Some people find, well, I'm gonna stop talking. I'm sorry. But one, one of my biggest interests is around the world. I've mixed with lots of natural native, tribal people, from Inuits to Zulu, to Aborigines, to American Indians, to um, Asians. And it is very interesting to me how it's the western woman that has the most, seemingly the most problems with menopause now, whether that's diet or stress levels or whatever, but that's opened up for a whole different kind of conversation. But those women around the world, I never saw anything like Western women's symptoms. Um, so yes,

Bee Macpherson: 14:24

that's, I just brought out there.

Liz Hill: 14:27

Well, let's swing back to that. Let's go to Jill now, and just to, Jill, if you give us a little insight on your story. I mean, so

Gilly Spence: 14:35

much of what Diane and B have said already resonates

Bee Macpherson: 14:38

so. Um,

Gilly Spence: 14:41

probably end of 2019 and it's, I think things get very muddled when you are looking back on it, and actually it's quite easy to, to downplay how it felt at the time. Yeah. Um, I, I've been, I've been in Nepal on a holiday and I don't remember. Having any symptoms at all. So that was the end of 2019, sort of November. Um, and I, you know, making like big decisions, where are we going? Where are we gonna stay, what we're doing, and not feeling anxious at all. And then the end of 2019, I just remember starting feeling incredibly anxious Exactly as a sort of being, and Diana just said, and it, for me, it wasn't a gradual thing. It feels as if it just kind of like, it was a bit of a sucker punch. It just came. Um, And I'd gone from being a reasonably

Dianne Benson: 15:29

calm,

Bee Macpherson: 15:30

balanced,

Gilly Spence: 15:31

um, making great decisions, knowing myself, pretty reasonably confident,

Bee Macpherson: 15:37

um, to just,

Gilly Spence: 15:39

I couldn't even make a decision. Like just even the tiniest little decision was just like, no, it's just beyond me. And that would be, Then I get upset with myself that I couldn't make the decision. Then I start crying, then I'd become overwhelmed, then I'd become more anxious. The palpitations would come. Same as you said, Diane. I'd be sat crocheting on the sofa, which is something that I taught myself to do, um, during lockdown and four, kind of to settle. I'd be doing it and I'd, my heart would be

Bee Macpherson: 16:06

pounding. I'd be like,

Gilly Spence: 16:07

this is crazy. I'm sat on my sofa, chilling out, and I'm, I'm, I'm up here. And I, nothing that I did would bring me. Down to what I felt was me. I just felt like I was just so, it was the palpitations, the anxiety that sort of kicked it all off. And then it was the rage just, I mean, I have a temper. I'm a redhead. I'll accept that, but it was just that absolute uncontrollable rage where it would just come from nowhere. Often it works. I think I probably. Outta work. I was really good at not putting myself into situations. So, sure. You know, the cue works somewhere and I could feel myself getting, like,

Bee Macpherson: 16:45

I'm gonna say, cut the

Gilly Spence: 16:46

Cuba quicker, and, you know, almost that completely not, you know, too much rage for the, the situation you are in. Um, but it was like a switch just when, so that was sort of my main thing and then it just kind of carried on and it took me a long while to go, ah, is this the perimenopause?

Dianne Benson: 17:06

And he was just like,

Gilly Spence: 17:07

Ooh, you know, I'm just anxious. I've got palpitations. And the first time I went to the gp, I was asked if my periods were still regular, and I said, yes, they are. Whichever you not perimenopausal them. Gave me propanolol for my anxiety dismissed.

Bee Macpherson: 17:21

I was told that

Gilly Spence: 17:22

it was a pandemic and everybody was anxious, and at the time I was not in a, I wasn't in the place to even question that. I was like, oh, okay. So that was me on panel three times a day for a number of months until I fell able to go back and go. This doesn't feel right. I, and I've done loads of reading, took with it the second time and was like, these are my symptoms. This is what I want. I want H R T, and I knew that I wasn't gonna be happy unless that conversation was ended with me having. A prescription basically, cuz I felt desperate. But that took a lot of courage to get to that point.

Bee Macpherson: 17:57

Um, I think that's really, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's really interesting and I think your experience has reflected. Among many, many women that I've spoken to. But going back to the rage, it, it's not, it's not, obviously it's not funny, but it's funny that I was the opposite. I thought I never got cross at work really, but it was at home. And I, I wonder if it's because I felt more relaxed at

Gilly Spence: 18:21

home in a way I live on my own basis. Rage too.

Bee Macpherson: 18:25

True. But it's, that's what took me back to the doctors the second time, because it was one day and I would, and I described it as, Absolutely incandescent. I was incandescent and I'm a children's nurse. I am, I'm a red ed, but I'm not particular person. And, um, I'd already been to the doctors in the January and said that all of this stuff and the, the doctor was lovely and listened to me. Um, but settle, if, if, you know, You, you, you're probably a bit young, but this is after a consultant had told me three years previously, so I think I'd managed until I was about 45. So I went off and this was six months later. I struggled. I couldn't run anymore. I used to run up mountains. I couldn't run anymore. My hips hurt. So like Di Diane's saying my hips, my joints and muscles. The palpitations, the anxiety, the hot flushes where I was taking spare underwear to work to change my bra and pants because they would be wet. Wow. There was there, they had to leave work because despite what one of my friends called stub bagging, you know, using a tampon on a pad, it, it was just unmanageable, but it was the, it was feeling like that. And I sat in that doctor's surgery and wept. And, and, um, just said, I need, I need help. And, and so did you feel outta control? No. Cause I, I just felt totally, I was ashamed. I was ashamed that I was so angry that I, that I'd. And I did similar to you, Julie. I, well, I actually recited cuz the GP wanted to prescribe me antidepressants, which is still suddenly in a historical practice that seems to go on was as well. Yeah. Well, and they're

Dianne Benson: 20:11

well. And they don't work. Let's go to

Bee Macpherson: 20:15

t. Sorry,

Dianne Benson: 20:16

dice. Say that again. So I'm saying that's what, that that's what off was offered to me too. You know, sitting in the doctor's office sobbing out of control. You're, you're offered, um, antidepressants and if that doesn't, let's try those first. If that doesn't work, we'll try H R t I was quite adamant

Gilly Spence: 20:33

that I wasn't depressed, that that was one of my things on my list to be like, I am not depressed. You know, I was, I just made it quite clear to them. Cause said, that was suggested to me as well. You know, we talked about h t and she goes, well, we could look at anti, no, I, I said I'm not adverse to using them

Bee Macpherson: 20:49

if I genuinely felt that I was

Liz Hill: 20:51

depressed. I am not, you don't have the training though. Don't, there's something,

Gilly Spence: 20:54

there's something amiss and it's not, it's a ho, you know, it's a hormonal imbalance. It's not depression. And I, but some people don't feel. You know, confident to, to say that. Do they? It's like, oh, okay, well the GPS saying this,

Bee Macpherson: 21:08

I'm gonna take them then. Yeah. And Peter,

Liz Hill: 21:10

it's almost like a challenge with them. I mean, I had to go, I saw, um, somebody privately because the, it was just the go away you find. I was like, this isn't, and I'd taken, uh, mine started 20 20 20 on the way back from India. Well that was my, what I thought was where it started and I was literally like carding and on off, on off. And Kev saying to me, for God say it, will you keep still? I was just like, I can't. I was just like burning up or freezing, burning up or freezing. So when we got to India, I went, I got one of my guys to take me straight to one of the Iovedic practitioners and he prescribed with something called Shatavari, which is like a balancer and you know, it was brilliant. It was brilliant for up until. Last December, I would say. But like we've been saying, like Diane, like you were saying about the tribes, I think I, I do think a lot of it is the stress levels we have because I'd had a very stressful summer. Yeah. Um, and I think it had caught up with me then with busy in the shop by the end of December. Yeah. Um, and the now I'm having a menopausal moment. You see now my brain's going. It's not,

Dianne Benson: 22:23

this is what's not,

Bee Macpherson: 22:25

there's no judgment here about that. Yeah.

Liz Hill: 22:28

So, yeah, so it was the tribes. So it, it makes you wonder, you see, I was in, uh, what will have been 2000, I, so I've been a, a holistic practitioner for years. So I decided in 2000 that I was gonna take myself off anything hormone related to almost prepare myself. Know I was 30, but I was, that was in my head just thinking. Right. Well, yeah. I'm gonna come off it now. Kev was really good. He went for the snip, so Oh, good. And I, I was, um, really thinking that I'm, I'm just gonna sail through this. This is just gonna be so easy for me. And I used to be, I, I said this to Jillian and I feel so. Ashamed about this, but as a, as a holistic practitioner, I used to, when women used to say, oh, shall I go on H r t, my response was, no, don't, because of what had been in the press about the, the risk of breast cancer. And so, you know, it was, it was painted as the big bad wolf, wasn't it?

Bee Macpherson: 23:31

Can I say something about that? Sorry to interrupt. No, it's pre 2000. Many, many women were in H R T. It wasn't an issue and it's because of that research that was done by the Women's Health in Health Initiative that said that you're a agree to in increase an increase risk of breast cancer if you take H R T. Now that research is proven not to be good quality research and the women they interviewed were all 10 years post-menopause, you know? Um, and actually the current research. Very much shows that you are, as a woman, you are more likely to develop breast cancer if you were obese or overweight than if you take H r T. But I think that's a very cultural legacy that we still hold and nobody gets educated. Why are we getting to perimenopause? Allergie not under this. Julie and I are health professionals. How come we didn't know about the, the range of symptoms? Because nobody is educated. We're not educated. Um, but, um, doctors aren't educated. But, um, I do think it's just, it's a women's health issue. You say women's health and everybody gets sort of scuttled if people think you're gonna manage Period. Mentioned periods of a Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz Hill: 24:39

It's like who panicked change subjects. Yeah. Well, they, they laid, I went to a talk. By a gp and she was, uh, saying very much that, you know, about the, the, the data wasn't fully given. They've, you know, they've just given like a snippet and not the whole story. So after that I went to see her partner, um, privately who is an Indian do, not that that matters, but she understands. I Ada and she understands. Now I know Diane had this because this is how we got talking about it, but I had such shame. For going on H R T because I'm a complimentary health practitioner. I've been practicing this for since 92. 1992. Yeah. And I'm going against my word, which is always a big issue for me anyway, but going against my word, what I'd said to those women, don't go on it. So I felt the guilt for that, but I felt the shame of going on H R T because why can't I do it naturally? And I've had the younger version of me now, now me, at my age, I've had, um, A conversation with, with several women, late thirties. Oh no, you don't want to go on that. Take this, take that, take the other, and, and that was me. So I, I've had karma, I've had a taste of my own medicine, but I, I don't. I don't understand why we feel this shame and, and it's, it's acceptance. We have to accept. And once I got to the acceptance, it was like everything was sort of got that balance there. Cause I was taking the h r t then, but when I first started taking it, and I've tried everything I've done the lion's man, I've done the chatav, I've done the C B D, I've done, oh, I, I can't even remember. I've done so many things. I've done the, the sage tablets, which. I do still take now and again, if I get hot flashes back. Um, nothing was, I gave them all fair chance, nothing was working. And this, um, doctor said to me, You can't, nothing will give you estrogen other than estrogen. You can have estrogen boosting supplements, but if there's no estrogen there to boost, yeah, what's gonna happen. But Diane, you said the same, didn't you? About that with the she? Yeah. I think what, so

Dianne Benson: 27:00

I think what happened, the shame didn't cut. It wasn't, it's not so much shame, it's confusion really and well, different words, but, um, At the beginning when something, when the emotional state, my emotional state, was so out of control that you can't function. You, you become a hermit more than I would normally. And you, you, you take yourself out of society as much as possible. Because you can't deal with whatever. Um, so when I went on h r T, it was almost like a, a desperation really of something has to happen to get these emotions under control and when they're under control, then in this was what in my mind, when they're under control and I'm stable again. Then I'll come off H R T and I can carry on my little way with all the ways that I like to deal with natural health things. So you know what naivety, and it is just desperation of get these emotions under control and then I'll have a rethink. So obviously now what's happened is you're on H R T. Until you're not until you're whatever age, until you 10 years down the road they decide to, oh no, you don't need them anymore. Or five or, you know, whatever years down the road. So that realization for me, once my emotions were under control, once my life is normal and back to being human again. Um, now it's chance to think cuz you can think you're not foggy, you're not desperate, you're not. Psycho. Um, so now I'm thinking, hang on a minute. I don't, I don't like or want to be attached to this, having to get a drug every, um, whatever time. Um, I don't like having to call my doctor and say, can I have a refill of, uh, and that dependence on anything, but especially, uh, a drug. But

Bee Macpherson: 29:08

it's a

Dianne Benson: 29:08

real, again, it's a tricky one because. I've tried playing with the H R T patches. I've tried playing with taking them a day later or two days later, or oops, I forgot to take it just to see what would happen. And it's not long before that, uh, emotional cycle that sneaks back in again. And so it's that dependence on, oh my gosh, I actually need these patches and they need to be taken regularly. And, and when I don't. It's not necessarily pretty. Okay. You're

Liz Hill: 29:41

braver than I am Diane, that's for sure. Well, I had a lady in the shop yesterday and bless her, she had to go, um, she'd had a bleed, so they told her she had to come off her H R T. Had to completely stop it cold Turkey. Can you? I can't even imagine that. No. Yeah. The other thing that

Dianne Benson: 30:01

happens is, um, when I first went to the doctors, I, I'm battling with this personal side of being attached. It's like contraceptive. You, you have to take it to not become pregnant or, or do something else, but, um, you're dependent on that. And so you go to the doctors, you get your refill, you go to the pharmacist and they say to you, You're, you know, you're on the last one, so you're pretty desperate knowing you need them and they say, oh, the suppliers stopped. We haven't got a supply. Oh, so that's your psycho in front of this, this pharmacist crying. And then I, I out of control because, you know, you're on your last patch and you, and you're scared to death of, of, of the consequences of, of y you know, your experience. So the supply and demand leads, uh, the suddenly. A big demand for these patches or drugs and now we can't get them. Um, so then that dependency again is just an awful feeling of,

Bee Macpherson: 31:03

of being Well, even though to the shoe, Doug, cause I know you are saying about your personal feeling, but I think. People need to understand that it's not one size fits all. Yeah. And I couldn't get on with the patches at all. It was the progesterone and the patch. Um, and I, I tried the patches for a while. I eventually worked out how to get'em to stick. Which, you know, was a challenge. Um, but the progesterone and the patch cause it was absorbed systemically, just didn't agree with me and I had me neither this. Yeah. Well I'd be interested to hear your experience as well, Julie. Cause I didn't talk about this for quite a few years cause I think, I think I've been on actually r the longest out of the four of us I think. Um, and I didn't talk about this for a long time cause I was so ashamed. Um, But, uh, it had a massive impact on my mental health and what I realized, oh, I'm so not nice for you, Jill, but nice for me that you are nodding. I feel a bit emotional

Dianne Benson: 31:58

with you.

Bee Macpherson: 32:01

Couldn't talk about it quite a few years. I would realize I was, um, Starting meetings at work, not concentrating about what was going on. Cause I was looking at the roofs of the building's opposite thinking. I dunno if I'd be brave enough to jump off that. Yeah. And then I'd think, well I could buy a paracetamol on the way home and then I'd could give, like, you'll get this jelly. And I'd to give myself a talking to and say, well, I'll just stand up. They'll just tut at me when they're putting up a parx infusion in intensive care. Cause I've given myself a liver of failure, but I felt so ashamed. That I had those thoughts and feelings, um, and I didn't talk about it in any detail. And I remember saying to one friend that I'd had these thoughts and they just said, oh, you're not gonna do it, are you? So that was the end of that conversation. So I just didn't mention it again for a very long time. You didn't say, I didn't say to anybody either. No. So, but when I came off the patches, it was like almost instantaneous to the, to the thought, the, the, that I thought I must have been in my head. Um, so the patches, so I just think women don't understand that it's a bit of a trial and error with H R T and you have to apply different stuff and what might meet your requirements one year. Might not meet your requirements. Another tab because things are fluctuating and changing the whole the whole time. Yeah. Yeah.

Gilly Spence: 33:23

I did stay on the patches, but not the progesterone part of it. So I started off at, probably similar to you on the combined and I, I was absolutely grand for two weeks. I was like, this is it. This is a miracle. This is

Bee Macpherson: 33:36

brilliant. I felt not quite back to me cause it took a long

Gilly Spence: 33:40

time for it to tweak and increase. But the progesterone part, Precise what you just said. B I mean, I feel quite emotionally even saying that cause I just, I spend probably about four or five days crying upstairs in my bed, just curled up in a little wall. I didn't text anybody because I felt, I felt

Bee Macpherson: 33:59

vulnerable. I felt ashamed, I felt scared.

Gilly Spence: 34:02

I was, I considered, um, the same as you. Um, just ending it all because I couldn't, I couldn't cope with how I was feeling. I just felt. Just awful. Yeah. And eventually, um, at the same time I had a, um, there was a bereavement and it just kind of, it just literally just tipped me over the edge to the point where I made a call to somebody and I was like, can you come? And she was

Bee Macpherson: 34:26

like, what now? And

Gilly Spence: 34:27

yes. And it was, it was one of a very, very close friend who just went, okay, I'll be there in 10 minutes. And she knew and I just sobbed and sobbed. And she's like, why didn't you ring me three days ago? I was like, I dunno. Cause

Bee Macpherson: 34:37

I just. I couldn't, I couldn't do it.

Gilly Spence: 34:39

Cause you're

Bee Macpherson: 34:42

sorry you're APA because we get on with it because we think we shouldn't be feeling

Dianne Benson: 34:46

one of the different, one of the, can I just say one of the hardest things for like you talk about shame or embarrassment or humiliation is, is the bleeding. And you know, obviously teaching yoga very sort of sporty in some ways, uh, and. The bleeding when you're going through pre or menopausal, that's different for every woman, I think. But for me personally, it got quite heavy and, and I'd always had very regular, very small. I think the more, uh, stronger your pushy body, the lighter your periods are. Sometimes I, I know that's not true for everyone, but, um, Throughout my life, they were very light, very regular, and, and then suddenly, you know, they're getting bigger and bigger and, and you just think, and then randomly, And so you're, you're out. You may be wearing a dress or some, and then suddenly you think, oh my gosh, where's the nearest toilet? And you know, sorry to talk bluntly, but it is a real, you talk about the shame and the humiliation of the embarrassing side of menopause. And, and I know it's just when I started to think about moving to France, I thought, oh, it'll be lovely and sunny. I wear the white dresses and white trousers and white, you know, little shorts. And, and then I thought, no cat in he chance am I gonna do that when suddenly I might be flooded with bleeding? Um, so that was something that was a real consideration of. Positive for the H R T because that takes that under control, settled that then. Um, so that's definitely an experience I think a lot of women go through. Yeah. Of not quite, you know, your handbag is full of. You know, the humongous sanitary towels or whatever you, whatever you use, and uh, wherever you go, you've always got that emergency supply. Um, isn't incredible.

Bee Macpherson: 36:51

How everybody's

Gilly Spence: 36:52

story is just so different because I had none of

Dianne Benson: 36:56

that. Right. No, me either. Like, none

Gilly Spence: 36:59

of none of it. So I, I feel incredibly lucky that I haven't had

Dianne Benson: 37:03

that symptom. I just, and a lot, the other thing is that, that really depends on, on if, if you live alone or if you're with a partner or if you've got good friends, you know, and you just, and it just absolutely floods where. You, you know, I can remember being in Italy as a child, and she'll hate me for saying this, but my mom, I think she didn't have many, many menopausal symptoms. Um, this is, she's 80, so it was a while ago, but I remember being in Italy. On holiday and she had a light pair of trousers on, and, and it happened to her the same. And my dad just put his coat around her, tied it around her waist and we rushed off. I didn't quite understand what was happening at the time, but looking back, that's what must have happened. Um, yeah, so I wouldn't.

Bee Macpherson: 37:53

Sorry, die. I thought you'd That's alright. Yeah, go on. No, I mean, I do have that experience, you know, I've been teaching at work and had to leave the classroom because there's just blood running down my legs. Yeah. The same with the hot flushes. Just having to change my underwear and people saying, are you all right? And in the end I just, I would own it and say I'm having a hot flush. No, you're not. Mom, I am. You're too young. No, no. And like, and these are like medically qualified people who would be telling me that I was wrong. And I think, well, I've seen a specialist. I'm sure I am. Um, but I wonder if, and you mentioned this just briefly earlier, Liz, like, I'm really hopeful that through education we can change. We can change, get rid of this taboo. Mm-hmm. You know, with more understanding. And it's not just about women or certainly women of a certain age that I think, this is what I was gonna say at the start. One of my other myths I want to bust is that it's old women that menopause happens to. Because when I was, like I said 42, and because I'm who I am, I went to look at information about menopause and what was reflected back to me were women who looked to me like my mom. Yeah, there weren't women in the thirties and forties, so we really need to get rid of that misconception that this is all women, women. But in addition, there will be young women who have a primary ovarian insufficiency. There will be younger women who have cancer treatments or need surgery, and so have an enforced menopause. We really do need to change culture and I, and I think if. And it's not just women, but if everybody understood what our hormones do for us. So if people understood that estrogen nourishes tissues, it, it's regulates bone turnover. It's important for heart health. If people realize that progesterone helps with those feelings of calmness and you need progesterone for sleep, People understood that testosterone isn't just for men, it's important for women as swell. So we need testosterone for motivation, for optimism, for sex drive if, if people understood what, what these, I mean, that's very simple and basic. I know I'm saying it in a simple way. I. But if people understood that on a simple level, they can then start to understand why they're having some of these signs and symptoms that they might be coming. And I wonder if that would take away some of the shame we're all saying we've perhaps felt in different ways, whether it's about the symptoms or about the treatment that we choose or choose, not not to have,

Dianne Benson: 40:13

because I think. I think because we women of of our age and, and more are starting to talk out more and more and more and, and discuss this. I mean, over the last few years it's probably been discussed more than you can ever in the past. Yeah, it has. Um, but what, uh, um, a friend of mine is, I think early thirties and. What I think is lovely is because we are starting to speak out, she has already planned, she started to have a few little symptoms and started looking into it and, um, taking, taking h r t lightly. Um, rather than waiting for it to be so out of control and so miserable and psychotic and relationship problems and can't hold your job down, and all these things that we've, some of, you know, some people have, have, uh, experienced, they're education because of us speaking out is there and it's starting to become more aware and therefore she's taping, taking precautions. Uh, much earlier rather than leaving it 20 years. And that, did you

Bee Macpherson: 41:25

think

Gilly Spence: 41:25

that will, that will change in the future? Do you think that when it filters down and, and we start like younger? Cause I,

Bee Macpherson: 41:32

I had

Dianne Benson: 41:32

no idea. So

Gilly Spence: 41:33

46 and I'm like, I should have been able to go, oh, I think this is the

Bee Macpherson: 41:37

perimenopause and I didn't.

Gilly Spence: 41:39

Do you think that will change in the future with us all talking about it more?

Liz Hill: 41:43

Yeah, I think education will, will bring

Bee Macpherson: 41:45

it in. Yeah. They talk about introducing it into, um, school curriculums, aren't they? But they need to introduce it into undergraduate and postgraduate medical curriculums. Yes, absolutely. You know, I, I know a GP who told me that menopause was not what mentioned once in her GP training.

Liz Hill: 41:59

That's terrible, isn't it? I think it's

Gilly Spence: 42:02

getting better though, isn't it? And I think, I think, I guess it's important to say that, I mean, my first experience was, was a fairly negative one, but my second experience was really, really positive. Um, and because I'd asked for the menopause specialist GP within my surgery, um, who really listened to me. But I think it's, I think it's important that you go almost prepared. You almost need to go armed with some information and kind of what you want so that you aren't just sort of, Leaving not really any further forward. And I, I guess that, that when you are feeling anxious, you're feeling vulnerable, all those things. That's really, really difficult to do, to be able to go, this is

Liz Hill: 42:41

what I want. Yeah. Well you don't, you don't know for, so like for me, who was very anti H R T? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know anything about it. So when I went to my regular gp, if you used to do, it sounds like you want H R T, what do you want? I don't, I dunno, what do I need? You know, I want to do it. So I got the bioidentical, which was massive for me. Cuz that's what, that's how I eased myself into it. Or it's bioidentical, it's okay, it's, you know, it's made from the cactus, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there isn't that. There isn't that education. And I think this is the key. To, to what it comes in and, and B, this is where you are doing a massive amount. And Jill, you've set up a group in our local area, but it's a Facebook group as well where women, we had first meeting, didn't we, the other week, where women can come. And just sit and talk like we're, we're talking and not feel ashamed, not feel embarrassed to ask a question. And you know, on the times it went quiet and then somebody would say something and then there was like a, an echo of I had that I felt that, or my friend felt that, that, you know, there's so much that overlaps and there's so much that needs the education and, and I think. Our generation are really pushing that through. Cause I get like, my mom's like, Dayani, yours is 80, my mom's 84 mm. And she's, well, it wasn't like that in my day. I just say through it, I didn't take anything. Yeah. And you know, I, I don't know whether, going back to the tribal thing, whether it is down to stress, whether it's due to, um, taking medication, taking the pill, has, does that have anything? I don't think anybody really knows yet. Do they? I

Bee Macpherson: 44:21

definitely think there's definitely a work, a work element, because we work very differently to the way previous generations worked. And if I, if I say again this, you know, what would be considered perimenopause or menopause alleged, we are the biggest growing demographic in the workplace. And we're long serving, knowledgeable, skilled women. So we should be nurtured through this transition, not feel like we can't cope. Um, Jill, um, that's so great cause I've been running men. I call the menopause thought Cafe since 2018 at work, and I did think about setting one up locally. I'd look to speak to you. About that. I've got a massive community now at work. Um, it's, it's peer support and I get such lovely, um, emails from people afterwards. Sometimes people come, sometimes we're first to first, sometimes we're online. Sometimes people come online the first time they don't put the cameras on and they'll come up and say, I just sat with my camera off and wept because I thought it was just me. A lovely email. Uh, after we talked about, um, Dryness one month. A lovely email of a colleague saying Thank you. My husband and I are now very happy. And I thought when there's a woman who become productive at work. Um, but just going back to your point, Julie, we're health professionals and we didn't under really understand about that. No. We able to advocate for ourselves and we used to advocate for other people. Yet we still found it difficult to advocate. In this instance. So I, I just think about, you know, women who don't have the, you know, have the same professional experiences we you do who don't, who aren't as able, who is supporting those women. And that's kind of, um, Yeah, so there is, there is education going on, but there's a, there's a long way to go and I think it's great that the general public or women are understanding a bit more about it. I agree. So when I run my workshops, I say to people, get a notebook. Write everything down. Go to the GP with your notebook and say what you want. You have to go, you, you really do have to go and say, this is what I'd like to try and, but there's definitely education of the health professional workforce needs to happen.

Dianne Benson: 46:19

Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Um, I was just thinking, I, a lot of what I learned about menopause was actually teaching yoga. So I taught, I learned by observation really. So time and time again, classes would be, um, would have women of all different ages come into classes. And, um, when they walk through the door, I'll read body language to a adjust what kind of yoga I might do if, you know, if they're all hurting of should aching of shoulders or, or anything. I won't do arm work, I'll do leg work. So I'll read people as they come through the door. So, Over time, um, when women would come in and, and I'd noticed that either be down or emotional or just, or moaning about something aching or, um, and, and over time there's lots of repetition when you're running classes over and over again. You know, people will show the same habits or the same verbal communication. So I started to sort of see all these patterns in women of, of a certain age and, and I started to learn. That actually, that's how I'm feeling. Cuz as a teacher you don't talk about you. It's all about them. So I would hear and listen and support and, and adjust my classes according to what they were complaining about or emotional state. But then I started to think, well, that's exactly how I feel. That's, that's what I was thinking. That's what's my, I'm going through that too. So even though in yoga you never really talk about yourself as a teacher. I started to share. So when someone would come in and they would be emotionally down or something or, or suffering in some way, I would just take the opportunity to say, do you know, I feel really, really melan today, or, or something. You know, I would take the opportunity and that would, that would lead to a sharing. And when women start to share, it's really powerful and it's, the energy is fantastic. So education isn't about just about books and doctors and all the rest of it. It's about sharing and having the courage to say, do you know what? I feel rubbish today and I'm just out of control and I need help and I'm going to a yoga class and I'm angry. So you, you know, and, and it's just fabulous to be in a class where women have the courage to cry on a yoga map or just kick the hell out of it and you're, you know, and, and leave with a

Bee Macpherson: 49:03

community. Yeah, you always had to

Gilly Spence: 49:05

sound

Bee Macpherson: 49:05

great, Diane. Yeah, well, well, that it was

Dianne Benson: 49:08

always run. It was always, I always advocated, I didn't really know. It wasn't from a menopausal point of view, but I always advocate

Bee Macpherson: 49:16

if you are angry, that is.

Dianne Benson: 49:19

Perfect yoga. Feel it, own it. Be angry. Don't deny it. Just ah. Or if you just want to be in child's pose and sob your heart out and we'll just carry on and you can join us when you feel like it. Pure yoga right there. And uh, that to me was the best types of yoga when women had the courage to just be whatever, take courage

Liz Hill: 49:47

themselves.

Dianne Benson: 49:48

That really does. Yeah.

Bee Macpherson: 49:50

I embrace yoga. Diane Yoga did really help me. I've not done yoga before. Me too, before. Because I was, you know, I was a runner and I ran up mountains and I'm a total warrior and yeah. That kinda thing. Um, and I, and I just couldn't do it anymore. And yoga, stretching are my two favorite things I do now. Mm-hmm. I absolutely love yoga now, but the other thing that I have regular treatment, I have regular twin. And it is. So if, if people, I know every, I'm sure everybody, but between, I was one of the central tents of chi, traditional Chinese medicine. Mm-hmm. So it's medical massage and that has Massively, yeah, massively helped me. It helped me with the muscle stuff. It helped me with the joint stuff. It helped me with the emotional stuff. And I've not a headache sufferer, but I know that people who do have migraines, it can be worse. Um, During menopause, and this between our practitioner I see has helped a lot of people with kind of migraine and tinnitus is one of the lessons.

Dianne Benson: 50:49

Yeah, exactly. Acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine. I, I've had for 20 years. Yeah. And it, you know, I suffered from migraines and it was every month and they used to tell me it wasn't connected to Europe periods, but uh, it was pretty obvious to me that every month the hormones were out of balance. And I would be in bed two days and the only release would be crying, vomiting, and sleeping. That's because,

Bee Macpherson: 51:16

and took an endometriosis diagnosis is a whole other conversation. Hormone

Dianne Benson: 51:22

are, there really are the, the problems of many things. And um, once they're out of control, something needs to be done in whatever way suits that person.

Bee Macpherson: 51:35

Liz, can I just do a little plug for Phoenix T Tweener? Yeah, go for it. In Helper, be Phoenix t Tweener in Helper. Be I'd recommend I can go.

Liz Hill: 51:44

Send me details and I'll, I'll put it in the show notes. I didn't realize we had somebody, Sonia.

Bee Macpherson: 51:49

Yes. And actually I did speak to, um, Ed's called about because when you were looking for people, um, I, I appreciate this is being recorded. Be useful if you want to do another one at some point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I have regular treatment and I, it helps me massively. As well as the H R T? I think it's, yeah. I think, like Diane said, it's, it's about balance of intent.

Liz Hill: 52:12

I think we all agree that that's a, that the HR t's a lifesaver. Yeah. You know, that's,

Bee Macpherson: 52:19

yeah. And given people the right information so they can make the right decision about their care. You know, it's, you know, it's, uh, I always say I'm, I'm not about prescribing stuff. I'm about describing stuff, but I think, yeah, it's good. It's letting people know what is credible sources of information and that shared experience is so

Liz Hill: 52:37

important. I think. So I think wrapping up, I think that, Like you say that we need to talk more, hence why we're doing this. But women need to talk more and know that it's okay to talk. Or if you want to be anonymous, then you could go to um, well, people like me, people like Jill on the Facebook group, contact them privately just to, to say, cuz you guys are there, aren't you, for open reach. Um, just to, to have that extra support and. It does take courage, but we've got that courage. We are amazing women. And like you say, we, we've come in our, I know some of you aren't 50 yet, but in our, in our fifties, late forties, fifties, we Thank you. We are just done to you, Julie. We are, I think we're coming into our own and it's about claiming the CRO now. That's what I was gonna call my podcast. Claiming the crone. Yes, because it, it, it's a, it's about stepping into your power and. We, I'm talking the royal we, me here, we might not feel as attractive as we did when we were in our thirties. We, we don't look, might not look as attractive to ourselves as we did in the thirties, but we've got so much more to offer than that with the, the wisdom that we've learned with the knowledge that we've learned. And the ability to listen, the ability to, to share with other women, but just to sit and, and listen to them and, and let them tell their story because that's not done a lot, is it? People don't listen. People are, people are already formulating their response and it's back and it's back and it's back and, and so just to sit and hear somebody. I think like Julie, you did for me, sat and listened to my moans and my Yeah, but why this, but why that? And, and I think that is, is just worth everything. Just that moment. It's a free gift, isn't it? We can

Gilly Spence: 54:32

give each other. It really

Bee Macpherson: 54:34

is. Yeah. Yeah. And nobody tells the trees. They're too old. Mountains. The too old. No. Can you imagine if we were like trees and mountains? Can you imagine how just Well, we are amazing. We are

Dianne Benson: 54:46

amazing.

Liz Hill: 54:46

And it, it is, it's for, in my worst of it, I felt, well, I wanted to be invisible, but I then felt invisible. Yeah. And it, it's a weird feeling. I, you know, from somebody who can be quite loud and outspoken and say what I want to, to, to have that where. I didn't want to, or I was scared to, and you know, that invisibility, but now we've, we've got this strength. So it's communication, courage, and education, I would say are my takeaways from today that we all need to. Pay more attention to and, and look at women around you. You know? And if you're somebody who's watching this, listening to this, and you're sat sobbing, crying, reach out. Reach out to me. Reach out to one of us. Mm-hmm. Or reach out to a friend. Just talk to somebody. Don't take it in on your own. It's not, you can't do it on your own. You, you know, we, we need that network of women. This is where we come together for somebody to say, I felt like that. Oh, I felt like that. Honestly, it just lifts. Off you completely, doesn't it? Sure. Yeah, it really does. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me. It's been amazing to see you all together, and I'm really grateful for your time. Is there anything that you'd like to finish off with before we go?

Dianne Benson: 56:07

Just a massive thank you conversation.

Liz Hill: 56:12

Yeah, well let's, let's keep it going and, and just keep that conversation going in the yoga class, in the menopause group, in the cafes. Be that you are running. you're amazing ladies. Well done. Thank you so much for joining, mate. Thank you. I'm so grateful. You and I will speak to you all soon. Bye bye.

Dianne Benson: 56:31

Bye

Gilly Spence: 56:31

bye.